Digital Accessibility

Beyond legal compliance

In this episode of the Brave Ideas Podcast we dive into digital accessibility with Mark Pound, CEO of CurbCutOS, and Yana Beranek, Global Head of UX at Ipsos.

We explore why digital accessibility is more than a legal checkbox and break down essential regulations, from the ADA to WCAG.

Episode 5 – Part 1

Discover why Yana and Mark are passionate advocates for digital accessibility—and why it should be viewed as more than just a legal requirement

Episode 5 – Part 2

We explore how CurbCutOS and Iposo are collaborating to create a solution that enables businesses to easily assess their current accessibility and plan for future enhancements.

“I think we all agree that accessibility is about more than just compliance.

So we believe that people with lived experience should be influencing how we develop products and services.

— Yana Beranek, Global Head of UX at Ipsos.

Connect with Chris, Yana & Mark.

Interested in exploring how you can make your website or product more accessible?

Book in for a session with our strategy team.

Get in touch

Podcast Transcript 

Welcome to the brave ideas podcast brought to you by Athlon, a global brand and product development studio. In this series, we grab time with innovators and changemakers spanning startups to market leaders. Together, we explore how digital innovation is empowering them to bring brave ideas to market.

 

Christopher 

Good morning, good afternoon, friends, listeners of the Athlon’s Brave Ideas podcast, we’re happy to have you today. I am your host today. Christopher Sherrick, Managing Partner for Athlon out in the Americas, delighted to host this episode of our Brave Ideas podcast today. We’re here to talk about digital accessibility. 

And this episode, we’re joined by Mark Pound, CEO of CurbcutOS and we’re joined by Jana Beranek, Global Head of User Experience at Ipsos, to talk about digital accessibility. 

Now, digital accessibility is something at Athlon we are very, very passionate about in terms of inclusivity, the commercial aspects, but also beyond the business, and that is what we’re going to lean into today. We really want to learn more about the both of you, how you’ve been working together, what is driving you in terms of leaning into the space of digital accessibility. And I want to welcome you both, and thanks for joining us today. Really appreciate it.

So before we get into the business side and who you represent, Jana, Mark, it be great if you could introduce yourselves briefly, Jana, we’d love to start with you,

Yana 

Sure. So I’m Yana Beranek. Global, Head of UX at Ipsos, and I’ve been in the user experience space for about 20 years. And you know, we are really excited to be working with CurbcutOS, because I think we all agree that accessibility Is about more than just compliance.

So we believe that people with lived experience should be influencing how we develop products and services. And since we’re always about the user, we want to make sure that we’re not leaving users out. And I think that really aligns with how CurbCut is thinking about including people with disabilities in things like digital experiences.

Christopher 

Absolutely. Thank you, Yana, and over to you, Mark, if you can provide a brief introduction for us.

Mark    

Sure. Hi everybody. Mark Pound, I’m CEO of CurbCutOS.Myself, I am a serial entrepreneur of 30 years. I apparently I like the abuse, but I love it at the same time, because everything I’ve ever focused on, for example, with CurbCutOS is empowering people who are disempowered and giving them solutions to where they can enjoy life equally and similar to what Yana said, you know, we’re super excited to be partnering with Ipsos, because, as I said to Jana probably too many times, is we fit like the hand In the glove, because we share so many similarities in looking at this in a different way and bringing a solution that actually works for and gives end users what they want, but also understands what company stakeholders need out of this as well.

Christopher 

That’s great. Mark. Thank you, and that actually brings me on to my first question, which is to set the stage for the audience. So CurbcutOS and Ipsos working together. What makes this a natural partnership fit in your minds?

Yana 

Sure. Well, I think one of the nice things is we bring very complimentary and not overlapping perspectives in terms of what we do. You know, Curbcut has a great SAAS platform and has a lot of people in their organization with lived experience around disabilities. At Ipsos, we have a lot of experience around talking to a variety of users, and we’ve been doing that for a long time. And so I think together, we bring both the kind of technical expertise and that human centered focus that I think addresses things from both kind of the data driven perspective, but also the empathetic side of what we need to do to make sure that experiences are inclusive.

Mark 

Yeah, and to Yana’s point, I don’t know what else I can say. I think, you know, from the first time we met to where we kind of grew over time together, because the mindsets, how we work together and bring a platform that we could eventually get into that is very unique, and of it. Yourself to even looking at where Ipsos comes in, and another angle too, from research, you know, and being able to deliver metrics or analytics or anything of that, such, in a market that need that because people need that support, and then from the end user standpoint, finally, giving a solution that works and gets them the ability to enjoy digital experiences just like everybody else.

Christopher 

Fantastic, and we will definitely get more into the solution so that our audiences can understand it. But before we go there, Jana, you talked about digital accessibility being more than compliance. I’d love to dig into more from both of you why this is beyond legal obligation, why this is a moral and business imperative for companies for companies to get behind, as well as for people to get behind for the better of the world. I’d love to hear what made you lean into this. Begin with, why are you so passionate about digital accessibility? Mark, I’d love to start with you

Mark 

Sure, I mean my passion, or why I got involved in this industry, comes from personal experiences. It may not appear to people when they meet me, but I was a quadriplegic on the football field. I never told anybody. I was very thankful that I recovered. Many years later, I then exacerbated that damage, the nerve damage I had from a car accident where the witnesses thought I was dead and I ended up with multiple spine traumas and more nerve damage, and literally spent almost 10 years of my life dealing with chronic pain, and woke up one day and made the decision, it’s not going to own me. So what I set out on, and I grew up in health care, and I thought I knew I had it, and I didn’t.

What I realized was is you got to get in the saddle, you got to take ownership, and you got to make it happen. And what that made me realize is, whether you’re born with a disability or end up with a disability, which the majority of people do end up with a disability over the course of life, is, hey, we still just want to enjoy life like everybody else, and don’t disadvantage anyone with a disability, because we only get one shot at life. We don’t get a reset button. And so that’s where my passion comes from.

 

Christopher

That’s beautiful Mark. Thank you for sharing that. 

Yana 

Yeah,I think to build on that, you know, I have two elderly parents who have regularly used tech. You know, I think we often think that older people aren’t using Tech. My parents are in their 80s, and they both regularly use their iPhones, right? But to watch my mom, who has pretty bad arthritis, use her phone, it is not at all unlike watching somebody with an upper limb mobility impairment use a smartphone. Both of them are, you know, disabled by our systems.

When it comes to how big is the tap target? What? How much do they have to touch? You know, a lot of times my mom doesn’t touch hard enough. And so thinking about, you know, as more and more of us age, and we have aging populations in the US and in Europe, you know, more and more people, whether you like it or not, are going to be impacted by disability, 

I feel like, you know, I could be in that category soon, right? And so while I haven’t had, you know, lived experience that really has made digital experiences difficult for me, I see it starting to impact the people that I love and know that, you know, I’m not that far away from it.

And so this idea of, you know, suddenly being excluded as the world continues to transform digitally is not the way I think we should go. More and more citizen services are going online, more and more shopping, more and more banking, all these opportunities to do things more easily and faster and more accurately, even with digital solutions. But we can’t build these experiences and then leave out a quarter of the population.Doesn’t make sense, you know, from from an ethical perspective and from a market perspective, it just, you know, we need to, we need to engage with all audiences. And that, you know, that goes back to who’s the user can can the user be more than what we think right now.

 

Christopher 

100%/ And thinking about the stats, I am someone who is a passionate advocate for mental health, for hearing health populations, and as I’ve learned more about both of those industries, I’ve been staggered and taken aback by the level off the population who is impacted, and how little support there is out there for many of them. 

 

Now, COVID had shifted the perspective on mental health, and we’ve seen a rise in digital solutions that have come to support their aid. There are many accessibility areas that have still yet to receive that same level of support, it would be great if you both can lay out there what I’ve learned from the both of you over the last six months, which is, what are the numbers you know, for people who may not fully understand the impact of the situation and to their benefit, it’s not their fault, right? It is a lack of resource, lack of education, lack of common statistic information that allows us to understand the impact and to pursue it together. So help, help our audiences understand what what is the impact?

 

Mark

Yeah. So I think from a number standpoint, the one that sticks out the most is one in four people of the population, and that’s globally, have some form of a disability. 

 

In other words, 25% of the population, the likelihood you’re on a subway, you’re in a stadium, you’re at a play, you’re at dinner, the likelihood you’re going to run across somebody without even knowing it is pretty high. And I think the other important part to that is, you know, what is a disability? Because it’s a generational element too, because older generations grew up thinking disabilities are, you know, certain ways or certain means of, oh, they’re in a wheelchair, or they’re this, or they’re that, and it’s very visible, but there’s also many invisible disabilities too, that people aren’t aware of until someone in a conference room goes, Hey, can you turn that up? I can’t hear very well, or, Hey, my vision is declining. I need bigger print, or I need something along those lines. 

 

The other important part to this is, not only are they visible and invisible, but we also need to think about, like Yana said, the aging population. I mean, the aging population, numbers are increasing, birth rates are declining. So if you look at that, it’s kind of at a nexus to where it’s the importance of digital accessibility is going to raise even more now we add on top of that chronic disease. You know, chronic diseases contribute to this on a daily basis, whether vision loss, hearing loss or cognitive loss. And so we need to look at that in aggregate. And really, by the time you start breaking that down, it’s probably greater than 25% of the population would be, my estimation,

 

Christopher 

Greater than 25% of the population in terms of those who need more accessibility support. Is that right mark?

 

Mark

Yes. Because if you look at just from a healthcare standpoint, where healthcare costs are just skyrocketing. And so if you look at somebody with a disability, they’re going to have a caregiver. 

So now you look at cost, right? 

 

Christopher 

Well, you bring up a great point Mark transitioning into, well, what is, what is the business impact of all this? Surely, if there is that large of a percentage of the population that is impacted by this, and they are unable to engage with businesses digitally that there is a monster market of people who want to engage with businesses but can’t?

 

Yana

Well, you know, the interesting thing I would say there is that they can, right? 

 

So we know that 71% of users who go to a website that’s not accessible will leave it and go to a competitor that is accessible. So the idea that they’re not going to be served, I’m sure in some cases, they’re not, but there are businesses right, that see the opportunity, that are like, we’ll catch that, right? 

 

I think Zoom is a great example. You know, not only did they take on, you know, meeting conferencing at COVID time, but they quickly started to add features to make their platforms more accessible, recognizing that if they did, o more people could meet on their platform.  

 

And so you know, while maybe there’s not somebody that’s going to compete with you in that space, most likely there’s going to be a competitor who’s doing a great job of it, or trying at least. 

 

And these communities are amazing referral communities, right? So I’ve been running some research this week on financial services with people with disabilities. And when you ask them, How do you decide who you’re going to bank with? They say, Well, I look at a couple of brands, and then I go to my thread with all my friends who have a disability like me, and I ask them what they think about this brand, and is it accessible, and am I going to be able to do what I need? And you know, so you, you not only will not serve, you will lose, right? And you may lose their friends and family with you, because oftentimes their friends and family, to Mark’s point, are assisting them. 

 

So they’re going to try to look for solutions where the person they’re helping can do as much as they possibly can on their own. Everyone wants to be independent. So I think, you know, if, if I knew that I could do something that could retain 71% of my customers, I might do it, you know, and that’s not to, you know, not even to get into the dollars and cents of what that is.

 

Mark 

I think there is, and I think that’s an important point that Yana just brought up on dollars and cents, you know?

 

And this is another interesting point that I think a lot of people don’t realize, is if you look at the disabled market, just the disabled market alone, $1.2 trillion however, like we talked about caregivers, like we talked about family and friends of people with a disability of any kind, when you start, when there is a survey done amongst people with disabilities, including their family and friends, 82% that they would conduct more business who is accessible. 

 

The other interesting point to this is, just within people who have vision loss, there was a study done $6.9 billion was lost in abandoned shopping carts because they couldn’t complete the purchase. So you start to look at this market, and it’s it’s massive, as far as I’m concerned. And then when you include the people who are the family, friends and caregivers, it comes out to be a $13 trillion market. 

 

So this is something where when companies are looking for growth, they’re looking for new markets, they’re looking for something to get to generate that business. Here’s one sitting right in front of them, and no one’s really tapping into it like it should be done.

 

Christopher 

That makes sense. Mark and the upside, clearly, is significant. Now we touched on it, and we don’t need to dwell on it, but policy makers are also looking to defend those who need to have the opportunity to engage with businesses, to engage with the world around them, and to experience the benefits that the rest of us are who may not be limited with the same accessibility needs. What is happening at the legal policy compliance level, that for those who are not taking advantage and moving forward in a growth opportunity space for their business, what is the other side of the coin?

 

Yana

Yeah. So I think a couple of interesting things. You know, in the US, we’ve had ADA for 34 years now, and I think that advocates and people involved with the disability community have recognized that one of the best ways to get things moving is to sue people. And you can’t blame them, after years of frustration, right? 

 

I think last year there were 4300 federal and state lawsuits around digital accessibility and ADA, so there’s a huge risk. 

 

The other thing that’s happening right is the European Accessibility Act is about to come into effect. That will be they will start enforcing compliance in June of next year, and that’s going to impact any business that sells goods and products in an EU member state, so you don’t have your business doesn’t have to be based in the EU for this to impact you. Right? Any American company that’s selling in the EU is going to have to comply with the same rules that, basically, you know, say your experiences need to be digitally accessibility, accessible. They are focusing on financial services e commerce, ticketing and transportation and any device, right, any device that you use to do digital things, whether smartphone e read or laptop, needs to be accessible. 

 

So similar to rules that Europe put into place around privacy a few years ago, changed the landscape for people’s privacy online. We expect that this legislation is not just going to influence Europe, but will, like GDPR, influence the world and how they think about whether digital experiences should be accessible without

 

Christopher 

Without a doubt. 

 

Mark

Yeah. I think also it can be overwhelming at first, and that’s part of the reason we do a discovery or we set out a roadmap, because just like Yana said about ADA and EAA or the European Accessibility Act, if you really start looking at all the regulations which are continuing to tighten. you also have web count, website content, accessibility guidelines. In other words, WCAG is what it goes by, and that’s kind of the global standard, but we can get into more of that later with how our solution also addresses that, plus more. 

 

In addition to that, you also have government based regulations. If you’re taking or doing business with the government, you’ve got section 508 and there is a new section 504 that just got signed in this year that’s applicable in the healthcare field. So as you can tell, between section 504 section 508, ADA, title two, and Title Three. WCAG, EAA. And then in Canada, you’ve got AODA, it’s it’s here, and it’s not going to go anywhere, and it’s going to continue to grow,

 

Yana

A veritable alphabet soup of regulatory requirements, right? 

 

Christopher  

I was going to say it’s great to have experts who are leaning into this, who can support us along this journey, and I believe that is the role that both of you are playing in this. 

 

It is for those who are unaware, you are giving them the opportunity to become aware, to learn more information. And for those who are ready to take action, you’re leading them down the first steps of their journey to what may feel like a brave journey towards digital accessibility, especially for those who have never heard of it, nowhere to start, have thought about it. 

 

I know in my exposure to different accessibility realms, there have been things that fundamentally I haven’t come across and have taken me by surprise because many of those with accessibility needs feel insecure about needing to ask for help, and they just wanted to be treated like everyone else. 

 

There is a stigma, right, of course, on both sides here, of people not wanting to ask for help, and for those with accessibility needs not to want to come across as overbearing in terms of what they need. How. (second audio)

 

Do you think that leaning into this space as advocates starts with dissolving some of this stigma to allow both business owners, business leaders and those who want to engage with them to come together in a meaningful way?

 

Yana 

Well, you know, I think you’re you’re exactly right that that leading in this space can feel a bit treacherous at times, right?

 

Because I think that if you don’t have the lived experience of disability, you you may not feel confident pushing your organization, being an advocate, because it’s always hard to know, am I going to make a mistake? Am I going to say something wrong? 

 

I mean, just, you know, in my own experience, the use of language around in this space is very different in the US compared to the UK. You can get tangled up in things really quickly, and that can cause a level of fear that that makes people say, You know what? We’re not going to tackle that right now, like, that’s too hard. We’re going to mess it up. 

 

And so I think that that recognizing, you know, and I think that’s one of the things that I love about working with the team at CurCut is, you know, we’re working with a lot of people with lived experience around disability, that have fabulous senses of humor, are very open to having the conversations, correcting us in a, you know, in a caring and kind way, so that we we don’t keep needing to be corrected, right? But they move us forward, and I think that’s been one of the wonderful parts of our partnership over the last six months, as we’ve been, you know, we, continue to train our teams to feel comfortable running these research sessions. 

 

But to just have more relationships and more open communication. That’s something that CurbCut really brought, I think, to our team. And I think so, I think it’s kind of like, go find some friends, you know, build community that that feels safe, so that you don’t feel like you’re walking on eggshells, right? Because I don’t think that that’s the intent of anybody who’s advocating in the space. I think everybody’s trying to move things forward, but we can get a little wrapped around the sprocket of like, What do I like? How do I even address this person?,You know, and you know, it’s, it can be tricky. But, you know, after I spend time with Jeremy on Mark’s team, and he says, You know, I see this all the time, well, Jeremy’s blind, and you’re like, Okay, if he can say that, you know, I could probably say, Jeremy, do you see what I’m thinking, right? You know? 

 

So, it just small example, right? But, but I think that’s the stuff that that actually does stop people in their tracks, of like, we can’t do this you know, and we’ve got to get comfortable with each other,

 

Mark   

Yeah? And I have to laugh, because, you know, Jeremy made a statement one day we were in a meeting, and he told somebody, she looks stunning. And I said, you need to take that seriously, because it’s coming from a blind guy, and everyone just was cracking up. 

 

And you know, it’s one of those, I can tell you from my own personal experiences, all the things that happened to me, I hid it. I didn’t want anybody to know, because my concern was I was going to be perceived as weak, and I didn’t want to be treated any other way. And it took me many years later  for a gentleman I met to say, You know what? Don’t –  say it. Bring it out. And it’s like taking a mountain off my back. 

 

But at the same time, too, anybody with a disability, whether you can see if they have one, or if they don’t. You know, visible or invisible. Nobody wants to be treated special. They’re a person just like everyone else. And so I think what happens in society is we have these pressures, or we have these things that we kind of force upon ourselves and say, oh, wait a minute. Oh, wait a minute. You know, they have a hearing issue, so I need to be a little different around them. No, actually, you don’t. You just need to understand that they have a hearing issue. And that’s that’s really it, because at the end of the day, just like I said before, everybody just wants to live and enjoy a life, contribute and feel worthy and respected and just have fun. 

 

And really it’s those common principles. And I think from a company standpoint, Yana touched on this is there is a fear, there is an anxiety, which is something we help talk them off the ledge from, because this isn’t 100% gain, not It’s not like the physical world, like curb cuts, when they went in and cut the curbs and put that ramp in, in the curb, and then they’re done. This is the digital world. However, at the same time in this digital world, when it’s approached correctly, you’re not always behind the game. You’re not in this. Reactive mode, you can get into a proactive mode, and no, they’re always there, knowing it’s never going to be perfect also. But as long as you’re making that effort, you’re making continuous strides to improve that people respect, that

 

Christopher 

I couldn’t agree more, beautiful. 

 

Okay, so thinking about small businesses. Yana, you yourself were a small business owner before stepping into the role that you are now. Mark, you’re operating at a startup. I had an experience a week ago. I met with a good friend of mine, someone who helps me out at the apartment every now and then lives in Philadelphia, who is a small business owner and knows nothing about digital accessibility, but is aware of news articles that are showing lawsuits of law firms who are suing small business owners taking advantage of some of these policies. Of course, there will be unintended consequences with every positive change that’s intended.

 

 What I love about what the both of you are doing are not only from an advocacy space and dissolving this barrier of being able to take your first step in and dip your toe in. But on the CurbCutOS solution side, there are baby steps. You are taking them along for a small chunk at a time, journey, which I believe is exactly what the industry needs. 

 

I believe this is more about a commitment to the long haul, and like any big industry issue, it is about the collaboration of many businesses, many people coming together, and that commitment to the long haul to make change. So I’d love to jump in more to learn or to hear from the both of you when it comes to CurbCutOS, when it comes to UX research, accessibility and digital innovation in general, lead me a bit more through how you see businesses being able to easily embrace this journey based on what the two of you are working on and putting forward,

 

Yana 

Sure, well, I think your point about bite size incremental, I think is something that we feel strongly about. It’s the kind of going back to the last bit of the conversation, right, not letting perfection be the enemy of progress. 

 

I think that, you know, we have looked at what’s the low hanging fruit, right? Part of getting to understanding what you need to do to fix accessibility is understanding what you’re not doing, right, you know? And getting your arms around that first and then saying, you know, what? What are the most severe problems? What are the mid range problems? And what are the things that maybe they’re not perfect, but we can live with them for a while. 

 

And I think, you know, being able to have all of that information in one place, which is what CurbCut you know, helps with, makes it so much easier for people to kind of pick the low hanging fruit, as opposed to, like, just try, you know, still trying, to pull everything together. So, yeah, I’ll let Mark talk a little bit more about the advantage of that kind of one place for everything.

 

Mark 

I think it’s a couple of things. Chris is, you know, it is baby steps, and you can’t a lot of people. You either get people who are working on something but they’re working in with siloed solutions, which causes fragmentation, which causes no collaboration, and they end up in a model to where they’ll start, stop, start, stop, make no progress, and end up frustrated, versus where look, you need to start off with a discovery process, you know, understanding what that company stakeholder is dealing with in their own company. 

 

What are the objectives? What? What is your budget right now? And what resources do you have available internally, if any at all, and taking even from a timeline. 

 

And then, you know, what do you want to get out of this that will help you build your department? So we start with that, and then we sit down and we put together a roadmap. And that roadmap is, well, hey, let’s start here. You may have five websites or 10 websites, but let’s start with these first, and let’s work on these and then migrate over time to the other ones.

 

But at the same time as that’s happening, we’re also helping them learn and unifying the team around one platform that contains the audit that they can then handle the remediation from that then also unify those teams, albeit it could be legal, it could be corporate communications, marketing, communications, developers, designers, they all need to be brought together and working together. And that’s another big problem, because we just had this happen recently where we were working on remediation and the developers weren’t talking back and forth with marketing, and lo and behold, the developers just pushed a bunch of code live, ruined all the remediation, and we had to start all over again. 

 

So there’s a perfect example of how these teams need to come together. And I think and holistically they want to come together, because it will help each one of them function better, and then empower that person internally who’s in charge of the digital accessibility. 

Authors

Kate Cargill

Consultant, Brand Experience

With 15 years of B2C brand and product experience and a MSc in Psychology, Kate helps companies predict, influence and navigate consumer behaviour.

Chris Sherrick

Managing Partner

Chris consults with market leaders helping them leverage design and innovation to deliver business impact.

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